Une interview de Sœur Kasturi

Shashwat Pandey a téléphoné à Kasturi Chaturvedi le 20 février 2009. J'en ai dégagé quelques éléments qui me paraissent importants. La transcription intégrale de leur conversation téléphonique en anglais réalisée par 4d-Don est à la suite.
Vous pouvez aussi l'écouter sur :
http://srcmcultofindia.blogspot.com/2009/02/kasturi-chaturvedi-explains-sahaj-marg.html

Sœur Kasturi confirme ce que disait Pandit Ji : Lalaji n'est en rien lié au Sahaj Marg et à la Shri Ram Chandra Mission.
Elle affirme aujourd'hui que Chariji n'est pas le Maître de la Mission, mais son manager. Il n'y a qu'un seul Maître et c'est Babuji.
Elle est opposé à la sortie des "Whispers" qu'elle considère comme néfastes, car ils colportent des messages "incorrects".
La religion divise et la spiritualité unit n'est pas une maxime du Sahaj Marg. Babuji a dit : là où s'arrête la religion commence la spiritualité, et là où s'arrête la spiritualité commence la réalité.
Elle est informée qu'il y a une affaire pénale en cours entre Chariji et Navneet. Elle trouve honteux que les choses en soient arrivées là. Les partisans de Chariji ont occupé l'ashram de Shahjahanpur et elle confirme que presque tous les ashrams créés du temps de Babuji ont été repris par la force.
C'est ce qui arrive là où il y a beaucoup d'argent en jeu. Lâcheté et mauvais comportements viennent avec l'argent. C'est ce qui cause les problèmes.
Babuji était opposé aux donations, il voulait en débarrasser la Mission, mais c'est pourtant ce qui est arrivé.
Babuji a demandé à Kasturi d'aider les gens aussi longtemps qu'elle le pourrait et c'est ce qu'elle fait.
Au sujet des lettres de nomination d'Umesh et de Chariji, elle dit que tout le monde peut avoir ce type de lettre, mais personne n'a été nommé. Chariji a été sollicité pour diriger la Mission et seulement cela. Elle n'a jamais vu de lettre de nomination et n'a jamais assisté à une quelconque désignation de chariji par Babuji comme représentant spirituel.
Babuji n'a jamais organisé de mariages entre abhyasis. Ce que fait Chariji n'a rien à voir avec la spiritualité. C'est pourquoi elle a quitté ce groupe.
Babuji était opposé à tout cela, il ne voulait pas d'hôpitaux dans un ashram ni de bureau de poste, les ashrams devaient être le plus petit possible et coûter le moins possible, car c'est l'argent des abhyasis.
A sa connaissance, la seule célébration organisée cette année sera l'anniversaire de Chariji.

Que voilà enfin des paroles bien réconfortantes, on les attendait depuis si longtemps déjà. Sœur Kasturi me réconcilierait presque avec le Sahaj Marg si je n'avais pas maintenant pris autant de distances avec ce mouvement.

Elodie

Transcription de la conversation téléphonique entre Shashwat Pandey et Kasturi Chaturvedi le 20 février 2009

Me : hello
Someone : - yes
Me : I am calling from Delhi, my name is Shashwat, I wanted to talk to Kasturi Bhenji
Someone : - hold on
Kasturi Bhenji comes on phone
Kasturiji : - hello
Me : - is this Kasturiji?
Kasturiji : - yes
Me : - Namaskar, my name is Shashwat and I am calling from Delhi
Kasturi : - hmm
Me : - I wanted to talk to you about Sahaj Marg, is this the right time to talk?
Kasturiji : - no
Me : - So.. we cannot talk today?
Kasturiji : - today in my home there is satsang, some people have come so I will go there, but why don’t you talk to someone there, there are many people in that place.
Me : - where?
Kasturiji : - there in Delhi..
Me : -Actually I have reached Delhi just few days back and I will return back soon, I don’t live in India, I live in the US.
Kasturiji : - ok, but there are many people in Delhi, there are people in Dilshaad garden, there are many people there.
Me : - I know Navneet here..
Kasturiji : - Yes Yes, but how long can you talk on phone?
Me : - I just wanted to know 2-3 things, it will hardly take few minutes.
Kasturiji : - ok, go ahead
Me : - my first question is about linage of Sahaj Marg, Lalaji, Babuji and Chariji, but a few days back I read on internet that Lalaji was not directly related to Sahaj Marg, what is your opinion about that?
Kasturiji : - It is like this, Lalaji was not related to Sahaj marg, only Babuji Maharaj is there.
Me : - ok
Kasturiji : - like there is lord Krishna and lord Rama, there are many sages and saints who worshiped him to come down to earth, but lord is one only, similarly, Lalaji got Babuji on earth, when there is birth, there is order for that, Lalaji by his prayers, tried to get Babuji on earth, Lalaji was not the lord. Babuji is the lord, Lalaji just prayed for him to come down on earth, lord is only Babuji, it is like this.. and this is what is called Shri Ram Chandra Mission.
Me : - very good, my second question is about current master of Sahaj Marg, Chariji.. what is your opinion about him.
Kasturiji : - no no, he is not the master of Sahaj Marg, it is like this, whenever any organization is started, like Shri Ram Chandra Mission is an organization which is registered, people are left behind as a caretaker, for example, a manager, who’s work is to oversee day to day activities, like when abhyasis come, then manager should arrange for his worshiping etc, his task is only to manage, that's all, and this is what happens in all spiritual organizations, like Buddha left someone, Vivekananda left someone, it happens everywhere, similarly Chariji was assigned the task to manage the organization, not spirituality, its everywhere, like there is a manager to manage an organization, he is that only, a manager.
Me : - so do you mean to say, like Babuji was master of Sahaj Marg, Chariji is not a master of Sahaj Marg, is this what you are trying to say?
Kasturiji : - No, chariji cannot be the master, understand it like this, like Ramkrishna mission, have you ever heard that there is any other master other then Ramkrishna? Did Vivekanada become master of RK Mission? Or anyone else?
Me : - No, it never happened like that..
Kasturiji : - master is only one, and that is Babuji, to run the mission, anyone can do that. Chariji is like that only.
Me : - actually since it is presented that Lalaji, Babuji and Chariji are masters of Sahaj Marg, therefore there is some element of confusion here.
Kasturiji : - lord is only one, team anyone can make, Meera always said one, Surdaas said one, Kabir said one, everyone said, there is one lord, so there cannot be many masters of Sahaj Marg, Babuji did not make only one Chariji, he made many people like Chariji.
Me : - ok, I got it.
Kasturiji : - lord is only one, but for management, there are 10 people.
Me : - ok, very fine.
Kasturiji : - good.
Me : - I had one more question, Chariji on Jan 29, 2001 said that a women cannot effectively execute duty of a master of Sahaj Marg, what is your opinion about this.
Kasturiji : - it is like this, Chariji joined the mission in 1964, and I joined the mission in 1948, in front of him, Babuji made me a preceptor, and I made his wife also a preceptor.
Me : - you mean Sulochana?
Kasturiji : - Yes, I have given transmission to him many time, Babuji asked to do that.. so this statement is false on it own, and he is also doing the same, this statement is wrong on its own.
Me : - I am delighted to know your thoughts, I have one more question, recently there is a book published by Sahaj Marg, called "Whispers From the Brighter World", which is said to contain messages from Lalaji and Babuji, and these messages are sold at a price of 250 euro’s which is approximately 12,000, Indian rupees, kindly throw some light on this as to what is this brighter world and what are these messages from the "brighter world".
Kasturiji : - I have written the truth about these things in my book, because I know, that these things are going to be very harmful for the mission in future, this will not convey the correct message, you tell me one thing, did Chariji hear the name of “brighter world” during Babuji’s time, or before him or after him?
Me : - (pause) you are correct.
Kasturiji : -(where) ever did he heard this name?
Me : - you are correct, this all started since 2005 onwards
Kasturiji : - even Chariji, he also use to do worship before, many big names use to visit him, did he ever hear this name “brighter world” (laughs..) and then there are messages from this place!! I will tell you the truth, and I have cleared this in my book, whenever someone is asked to come down to earth for some work, suppose Babuji was asked to come to earth for spirituality, there are some personalities who know before hand, that this divine personality will come down to work, such personalities leave their pleasure and allow themselves to protect that divine personality like a bodyguard, like lord Shankar, Narad Muni, and many others, whenever such personalities come down, they all are ready to serve such a personality, these are people who stay back after leaving earth, and they get the job done, they will inform, like you need to do this, you did a good job, but you need to do this also, and there is nothing of this kind in Chariji’s diary, I have read that diary.. it only contains information like, he is praising him, she is praising that fellow.. like this.. if there is expression of any kind of relation, than it is totally false, because relation are that place when spirituality ends, there are no relation for such people, all relations are part of earth, and they and they are left behind in this world only, when you leave this world then only divine bliss exists, and there are no relations there.. and in Chariji’s diary, all it contains is relations… I have not written his name because he is head of our mission currently, I have not taken any name, but I have answered everything, so that people can come to know the truth.
Me : - you have done a wonderful thing, I wanted to know one more thing, your personal view about religion (9:35)Kasturiji explains religion till 10:10.
Me : - there is a saying in Sahaj Marg, “religion divides spirituality unites”
Kasturiji : - this is totally wrong..Babuji said, when religion ends, spirituality begins, and when spirituality ends, reality begins, I have written everything in my book.
Me : - you have informed us of a wonderful thing, because such kind of statements make people go away from Sahaj Marg, because it gives a very wrong message about Sahaj Marg, that it is against religion, for example I am a Hindu, and in Sahaj Marg, they say Hindu religion is corrupt.
Kasturiji : - I am saying this, how can anyone follow any religion, if you are a Hindu, that means you are a Hindu, you don’t need to follow Hindu religion, you are already a Hindu. Where does the question of following religion come, either you are a Hindu or you are not… there is no question of following any religion, same is true for Muslims, they are Muslims and they do what others do..
Me : - very nice, do you know Navneetji personally?
Kasturiji : - no I don’t know him personally
Me : - you don’t know him personally?
Kasturiji : - no personally I don’t know him.
Me : - I have read in newspaper that their Ashram in Shahjahanpur was captured after beating Navneet's mother and her old brother… are you aware of that?
Kasturiji : - yes, there is a criminal case pending in that regard.
Me : - yes, chargesheet has also been filed in this regard, against Chariji, Uma Sahnker Bajpai. And others..
Kasturiji : - it is like this, you were asked to manage the mission, and a person who is suppose to manage a spiritual system, he must have a balanced state, such a person is never angry, such a person should not cause pain to anyone, when these things reduce… its sad.. is it not a matter of shame for the mission that such a case is registered against him? Is it not a matter of shame that such a case is there in a spiritual mission?
Me : - yes you are right, it’s a matter of shame..
Kasturiji : - our mission is based on brotherhood, there is no-one who is big, or small, if someone is giving transmission, only during that time, he is big, else he is just an abhyasi and nothing more..
Me : - so what is your stand on this, Umeshji expired soon after, I think, they attacked the mission immediately after his death..
Kasturiji : - they simply occupied it..as if they declared a war and forcefully captured many ashrams like in Vijawada, and some more.. almost all ashrams created during Babuji’s time forcefully.. this was the reason why I said I will not continue with you !! I will stay at feet of Babuji and I will not support you.
Me : - you did the right thing, because what is apparent is quite painful, I know people in France and there life have been devastated by these things..
Kasturiji : - this is what is bound to happen, many life’s have been devastated, I also know, there is something more you should know, no-one becomes spiritual suddenly, it takes time, Meera was a devotee since her childhood and reached that state after a period of time, but here what happens is there is lot of money, and when there is no accounting for donations what else will happen? What (does) money bring? Unrest, loose character, bad behaviour, these are the things which money brings and this is what causes problems..
Me : - yes you are very correct, last time when I visited India, I visited Navneet and his mother, unfortunately I could not meet you personally, therefore I thought that maybe I willl talk to you over phone and get your blessings.
Kasturiji : - whenever you come here, do visit my place.
Me : - no I will return back on 4th.
Kasturiji : - no problems I will be visiting some places in south India on 23 and I will return back on 6th, Babuji Maharaj had asked me to help people as long as I can.. so this is what I will do.. Babuji was very much against concept of donation, he had said that he will erase the name of donation from his mission, but this is exactly what he is doing..
Me : - its sad..
Kasturiji : - these were the reasons as why I said that I will not come with you (to Chari)!! Because this behaviour is totally against the teachings of Babuji, but it's ok..
Me : - do you know Uma Shankar Bajpai who is on board of Sahaj Marg Spirituality Foundation, he lives in Allahabad..
Kasturiji : - I know them very well, that why I never meet them.
Me : - what is your opinion about these people..
Kasturiji : - that’s why I don’t meet them
Me : - ok
Kasturiji : - instead of saying anything, when you find that spirituality is far far away, its better not to visit that place, and then say anything about it.
Me : - ok.. does it means that they are not very good people?
Kasturiji : - this is the reason as why I don’t visit them.
Me : - by any chance do you know S.K Shukla ?
Kasturiji : - they may have joined later, I don’t know them.
Me : - ok.. I know family of Uma Shanker Bajpai, but unfortunately now my relation is very bad with them..
Kasturiji : - if you happen to visit here, do meet me.. you will get all the answers
Me : - sure I will try my best.. I just wanted to know two more things.. your opinion about these two things.. after which I will say thanks to you..
Me : - first is... Navneetji has filed a case regarding ownership of Sahaj Marg and SRCM, in which he has produced a letter of nomination in supreme court of India, case is still pending, what is your opinion in this regards
Kasturiji : - how many people have this letter of nomination? There are many people with this kind of letter of nomination.
Me : - I could not understand
Kasturiji : - its better not to get involved in these things..
Me : - it is for my information only… nothing else..
Kasturiji : - I am telling this for your information only!! Nobody has anything..
Me : - ok.. so according to you, chariji was asked to manage the group!!
Kasturiji : - yes, for management only.
Me : - like a secretary or something like that..
Kasturiji : - exactly, only for management, (not related to spirituality)
Me : - so what is the contribution of Umesh Chandra in this?
Kasturiji : - there is no contribution from anyone, he was Babuji’s son, all that he could do as a son that was all his contribution.
Me : - interesting..
Kasturiji : - he wanted to become that… that all, these things are useless.. (laughs..) and I am not interested in this either, I never try to know these things..
Me : - Actually I have seen the documents submitted in supreme court of India, I have seen both the nomination letters, one of 1983, which is in favour of Umesh Chandra and that of Chariji which was that of 1974.. and I got the signature verified by an expert on both the documents…
Kasturiji : - I have not seen anything, I have never seen any nomination letter for anyone!! Babuji taught me meditation and service to abhyaisis and that's all I know, I don’t know anything else..
Me : - Actually I came across someone who said that Babuji appointed Chariji as his spiritual representative in your presence, like you are a witness for Chariji’s appointment.
Kasturiji : - this is totally wrong!!
Me : - so this is not true!!
Kasturiji : - laughs.. these people can say anything..
Me : - yes, even I was also surprised by this, because when I read about you on internet, my first impression was that, that you are a very honest woman, and I had this desire in me, that if I am able to meet you or if I am able to talk to you, I will consider myself as very lucky, but when I came to know this.. I was a bit surprised, I happen to know someone in Canada, and I was informed that appointment of Chariji took place in your presence.. I was taken aback with this information because I could not digest the fact that if Babuji was a divine personality, then he cannot make a person like Chariji his spiritual representative.
Kasturiji : - when you can understand this, Babuji was Babuji.. got it?
Me : - yes I got it.. I am really pleased to know this.. now my last question; my last question to you is, what is your comment for Sahaj Marg, given the current situation of Sahaj Marg, like Chariji arranges marriages inside his group, there are divorces in Sahaj Marg, very young children are separated from their parents, in Lalaji memorial school in Chennai..
Kasturiji : - you answer this question yourself.. is this what is known as spirituality?
Me : - No, but what is your opinion about these things..
Kasturiji : - my view is simple.. these were the very reasons as why I left that group..
Me : - ok..
Kasturiji : - Babuji Maharaj has told us that the Mission is one family, which has only one point of view, everyone should stay in support for each other.. and one more thing Babuji Maharaj said, that he has infused a life of brotherhood in his Mission, and if this life has a feeling of brotherhood, that means you have joined the Mission properly, but if any other feeling is there in you.. then you have not joined the Mission properly.
Me : - did Babuji during his life time, ever arranged anyone's marriage?
Kasturiji : - Never.. he was very much against these kinds of things.. he was very clear, there will not be any hospitals in ashram, no post office will be there in any ashram, all the ashrams will be very small, so that not much land is used in building these ashrams and farmers land should not be used for building ashrams.. minimum money should be spend, because this money if from abhyasis.. it is abhyasi who pays for these things therefore spend minimum money possible.
Me : - So, it means Babuji never arranged any marriage during his lifetime.
Kasturiji : - Never, Never..
Me : - fair enough.. actually there is a statement from Chariji wherein he says that there is an order from Lalaji that abhyasis of Sahaj Marg must marry each other..
Kasturiji : - (laughs..) was he present at that time?
Me : - (laugh..) I could not understand this.. even today!! How come Lalaji gave this order?
Kasturiji : - you tell me.. he says this is an order.. was he present at that time???
Me : - how can he be present at that time, he was probably not even born at that time..(laughs)
Kasturiji : - (laughs).. don’t get involved in these things son, take only that which is good!! Sahaj Marg system teaches us to become like saints.. rise above humans and become like saints.. consider everyone your own, and love everyone, and move towards peace and happiness.. good enough?
Me : - yes
Kasturiji : - remember this only !! and whenever you get an opportunity do visit me..
Me : - definitely, I will try my best to meet you !! the last thing which I wanted to inform you, just in case you are not aware.. in a report published by a committee of French government, and also in Belgium, it is stated that practice of Sahaj Marg is psychologically harmful and members of Sahaj Marg are brainwashed, controlled and manipulated.. what is your opinion about this..
Kasturiji : - I have also heard that mission has been removed from every country only in Denmark it is there and from all other countries it has been removed. What you feel bad about Sahaj Marg, governments and other agencies have also objected to same things..
Me : - hmm.. I have heard that Chariji has cancelled all functions of Shri Ram Chandra Mission this year.. are you aware of this..
Kasturji : - now he has said that only one function will be celebrated this year, which is his birthday celebration of 24th july.. that's all..
Me : - ok, I am greatful to you for your information..
Kasturiji : - I will stop here now, I have to go..
Me : - thanks a lot for your time.
Kasturiji : - thank you.